Invisible Gesticulations - Bogs of Our Lives

From: dadragoness Date: May 3rd, 2008 01:35 pm (UTC) (Link)

how over played is the use of "mithril"?
i am completely unfamiliar with it.

also do you not want to use your own created metal?
or would the purpose & usage of said metal be consistent with the already in use "mithril" & everyone would say "hey!! he's ripping off tolkein & not giving credit nor paying homage!!"

you know language is a useful tool & always growing in new & interesting ways.
it is entirely up to you how to use that tool.
} : =8} )
if the metal is mithril, then call it thusly.

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From: rmg Date: May 3rd, 2008 07:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

Mithril is pretty common, and even though it might not be copyrighted by the Tolkein Estate, it still sounds pretty Tolkein, and the fact that it keeps on appearing in completely unrelated settings sort of gets in the way of my suspension of disbelief and throws me out of a story. It's a lot more specific (being an actual Sindarin word and all) than other Tolkein elements that are reused in other fantasy settings, like elves or dwarves, which at least are sort of drawn from folklore even if they're still interpreted through a Tolkienesque filter.

So anyway, I'd suggest naming your special magic metal something that would make sense in the specific context of your setting, its languages, and the attitudes of people in it towards it.

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From: dadragoness Date: May 3rd, 2008 08:59 pm (UTC) (Link)

help me with this, honey.
you say...."It's a lot more specific (being an actual Sindarin word and all) than other Tolkein elements that are reused in other fantasy settings, like elves or dwarves, which at least are sort of drawn from folklore even if they're still interpreted through a Tolkienesque filter."

i am wondering where i draw my references from if not folklore since i am unfamiliar with tolkein.

then, i wonder where tolkein drew his references from if not folklore.

storytelling is a human facet that has always been there.

it is a way to share information.

certainly you are not suggesting tolkein created the source by which all mankind now uses for dwarves & elves & faes, are you?

tolkein got his "story" from somewhere surely others do as well.

is tolkein a litmus test that i am unaware of?

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From: rmg Date: May 3rd, 2008 09:13 pm (UTC) (Link)

A lot of "high fantasy" draws pretty heavily from Tolkien and his specific images of elves and dwarves and orcs and such. (Of course, sometimes you get things which are then inspired by other things inspired by Tolkien, like somebody copying an old VHS tape over and over again, but that's neither here nor there.) But this doesn't really bother me that much (hell, I do it in my comic, which has elves and orcs running around :V ), since like you said, it's still referring to folklore that predates Tolkein... as long as you're doing something interesting, and not just filing the serial numbers off of Lord of the Rings and renaming the characters (I'm looking at you, Terry Brooks).

"Mithril" just seems a bit different to me because that actually is a specific invention of Tolkein's, with a name he invented. It would be like having the One Ring or Minas Tirith or Hobbiton suddenly appear in an unrelated fantasy story.

EDIT: Also, my first comment wasn't meant as a reply to yours, I just hit the wrong reply button, whoops.

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From: setsuled Date: May 3rd, 2008 10:52 pm (UTC) (Link)

the fact that it keeps on appearing in completely unrelated settings sort of gets in the way of my suspension of disbelief and throws me out of a story.

I suppose this doesn't bother me so much because I'd heard of mithril before I read any Tolkien. And maybe also because I'm aware of etymological and cultural routes of a few words and things--I mean, everyone's speaking English in this thing, but I think everyone understands that it's sort of translated from a fantasy language. But for names of places and people, I do try to create a sense of the fantasy languages.

But almost everything is going to have a resonance with something that's not established, unless I want to spend decades putting this together. Can I really argue that what I'm putting together would as naturally lead to things like swords and churches? Well, I suppose that's partly what fantasy's for. I know mithril may be a too recently established concept for a lot of people, but I am rather fond Tolkien's intention of creating a mythology for England. To me, elements of it cropping up in other stories more closely resembles the organic proliferation of myth.

Actually, though, what I think I was really wondering was whether or not I wanted magical metal at all, which makes it a bit unfair to ask people who know nothing about the fantasy world I'm talking about. Maybe I was wondering if I'd net any hardcore mithril fans.

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From: setsuled Date: May 3rd, 2008 10:51 pm (UTC) (Link)

how over played is the use of "mithril"?

Well, it's in Final Fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons and more things than I even know.

also do you not want to use your own created metal?
or would the purpose & usage of said metal be consistent with the already in use "mithril" & everyone would say "hey!! he's ripping off tolkein & not giving credit nor paying homage!!"

Probably not. Though I think I was wondering very specifically about mithril, as opposed to other mythical metals, like adamantium. They all seem to have their own personalities that aren't quite easy to define.

if the metal is mithril, then call it thusly.

That's what I figure, and why I'd feel a little silly calling it something else.

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From: stsisyphus Date: May 5th, 2008 01:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

I voted "no" on this one, simply because unless the story specifically requires you to reference and hinge plot points on the specific metallurgy of mithril, I reckon you could probably just dump it. If it's just a throwaway reference, "Lo, this blade is made of mithril! *cue FF-Victory music*", which is never made reference to again, screw it. You could just say that the same item was "magically enhanced" or something to accomplish the same effect.

The fact that an item is mithril is really unimportant, and could probably be notated in a footnote or annotations to the comic, if you must have the reader know it.

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From: setsuled Date: May 6th, 2008 01:34 am (UTC) (Link)

The fact that an item is mithril is really unimportant,

Well, sure, unless I decided it is important, in my work. But I think I've decided not to have any magic metal in my universe, at least for the time being.

Basically, I was thinking about this because I decided in my world that elves can't touch iron or steel. Copper's too scarce for bronze even to be developed, and I figured if the elves were going to wear metal when I had the stipulation about iron or steel, it'd have to be a special metal. But I pretty much decided mithril isn't special enough--I want to emphasise the elves' relationship with metal by refraining from showing them in metal armour at all.

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From: stsisyphus Date: May 6th, 2008 01:24 pm (UTC) (Link)

Well, sure, unless I decided it is important, in my work

Well, yeah, of course.

I want to emphasise the elves' relationship with metal by refraining from showing them in metal armour at all.

There's always Chitin.

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